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What is Worth Fighting For?

October 4, 2013

Dear Reader,

So I’ve put off writing about my guild situation for a week now.  A lot has developed, and I’ve been pretty unhappy about most of it, but I also wanted to be as fair and objective as possible when I finally wrote about it.

Two weeks ago:

You may remember, dear reader, that two Tuesdays ago we had a situation where half of the “guild” LFR group dropped to pursue their own course.  That overt act was up is followed by a 4 hour conversation with an officer, where, I suspect, the “other” side made its case counter-argument-free.  What I’ve heard is that they argued that “They’re doing it to improve themselves so they can go on guild raids and carry harder.”

Even objectively, I see two problems with this argument.  One, it’s inherently elitist.  That doesn’t necessarily make it incorrect, mind you, but if the spirit of this guild is one of inclusion, then that’s a dangerous precedent to set.  Secondly, several of the raiders who were at that time going to the (let’s call them) “insider” raids weren’t going to guild raids.  Admittedly, I have been provided data and argument to explain that , and over the past few nights when I haven’t been going (more on that later), they have, so perhaps that second argument is resolving itself.  We’ll see.  Regardless, on any particular raid night, they’re unlikely to be truly carrying more than 10% of the participants (for normal, the officers are generally pretty careful, and for flex, there’s just not that many people to carry compared to acceptable raiders), so the argument seems a bit spurious at best.

That Wednesday, we spoke to the officers again and were told that the “insider” group would be dealt with.  The flex went down as normal and we finished wing 1 to much accolades.

That Thursday, I suspected we’d be doing wing 2 of flex and as a result turned down other offers to do it.  Instead, though we had 20 people show up, the guild did a normal.  6 of the 10 players in the normal were people from the “insider” group.  I lost my cool a little at one of the officers, for which I’ve since apologized, but since 2 of those 6 were dps and I, who showed up, turned down other offers, and wasn’t doing things secretly or overtly on my own got sat.  Reflectively, they had to take 4 of the “insider” group, as those were the tanks and healers.  The other two, though, the dps, still rankle me a little.

Friday I spoke to a different officer at length about the above situation, but was mostly just placated.  To be clear, it’s not that the officer was consciously placating me; there’s just not much that can be said to satisfy the situation without some metaphorical heads on spikes.  However, if they have to choose between me being upset – 1 person, who’s new at that – and that whole group, it makes sense to guarantee working things out with the group and just do their best to work with me.  Here’s where I really began to suspect that the 4 hour conversation (which this officer was not a part of but I assume was told what was said) had turned the tide somehow.

During this conversation, I pointed out how often I was sat and was promised a spot for Monday night’s raid.  I appreciated the gesture, but the fact is that I don’t want to have to pitch a fit every time I want to go to a normal raid.  I was also told that Monday some consequences would come out, but not publicly. These “consequences” seem only to be being sat for a raid, which isn’t really a consequence because people get sat all the time solely because there’s too many dps.

The second problem with this discipline is the distance between the act and the punishment; more than week would have gone by that point.  Plenty of educational and parenting data shows that for any punishment to be effective, it needs to be immediate and directly linked to the act.  This furthers my suspicion that the 4 hour talk has essentially remedied everything without half of us knowing exactly what was said or being able to rebut.

Saturday there was another flex raid which was apparently discussed in mumble but not posted in guild chat, so while I had heard about it, it wasn’t really publicized.  Still, it wasn’t in secret, so that is an improvement, but only sort of.  Regardless, it means that anything we don’t get done on Weds in flex isn’t getting done.  When I spoke to an an officer, he indicated that this had publicly been announced as the plan, which may be true; I honestly don’t remember it, though.

Sunday there was almost a raid, but not enough tanks showed up, so it didn’t happen.  No real change there.  I did notice that the Message of the Day in guild was recording our normal kills, which are, logically, less than our flex kills.  I pointed this out to an officer, asking why flex, which we were told by the GM before his hiatus was progression weren’t being lauded, since we were further.  To his credit – and this is the fellow who I griped about being a loudmouth before, so since then there’s been a lot of nice-making and general character improvement (which matches what I was told about him when I asked around) – his first, immediate response was that we should be noting both.  That’s likely the best answer I’ve gotten from anyone during this whole process.

Monday we had to do normal since flex was used up.  A few people got sat, when, if we’d done flex, they wouldn’t have.  I spoke again to an officer after to explain my concern that the weekend raids were both indirectly (through getting raiding out of the system) and directly (because the flex lockouts were ruined) affecting the actual guild raids as well as my concern that people who were showing up when they’re supposed to are getting sat because we can’t do flex.  I was again mostly placated, though again I want to stress that it wasn’t the officer’s goal to do that; in fact, the officer looked up some data (which I dismissed due to the fact it’s only from post 5.4, but that isn’t his fault) and acknowledged that a lot of his answers sounded dismissive.  I’m just tough to please, I guess.

Tuesday night the “guild” LFR (as the previous Tuesday when this whole thing kicked off) was basically cancelled because one of the other group decided he wanted to do flex wing 3 (he’s too good for LFR now based on his gear score, and has repeatedly said as much; in fact, tonight he said he didn’t want to do flex, either.  More on that later), so the guild LFR was put off.  I said something about it in guild, and was told by this member that the officers had okayed it and in fact a couple were going.  This made me unhappy because I hadn’t even seen wing 2, since I didn’t go on the weekend raids, and here we were going into wing 3 instead of doing a more accessible guild run.  But the officers were okay with it, it seemed, so I’m apparently the outsider now.

A guild LFR did start up later; I don’t know if the flex didn’t happen or what because by this point I was so fed up by guild activities being directly influenced by individual players that I said the hell with it and went and did flex with someone else who knows a lot of quality players and actually wants me to raid with him.  We did wings 1 and 2 without a single wipe.  It was refreshing, and I pulled my weight with my dps, so it felt good.

This Wednesday I skipped the guild flex, committing the very sin that I’m upset at others about, I know, but I’m tired of being good and unheard, and I’m frankly distancing myself a little for perspective, but when I logged on later, I was further guilted into doing the same flex 1 and 2 with the same fellow (I say guilted because he attempted to recruit a college-age girl to flatter me about my job and blog, and while I assume it was all done tongue-in-cheek, it’s important to note that I’m immune to that sort of thing since I have college-age girls trying to use their wiles on me all the time about grades.  It just bounces off at this point).  Still, he helped me out the night before, so I returned the favor.

We eventually ended up doing the third wing as well, so it worked out quite well for me in the end.  We only had 2 wipes the whole night, and both were simply adjustments to the new wing 3 fights.  That night, I did not carry my weight (overall, I mean, I did just as well) as there were more people from this buddy’s guild who were obliterating the dps meters.  I think I set a “record win” time for every boss in DBM.

Thursday I logged on at raid time, but there were a lot of people, but not enough for flex, I guess, so I stepped out.  I’d had my turn Monday, was kind of naughty on Tuesday and Wednesday, so I figured I’d give my spot up to someone who could use it.  Since the “too good for LFR and flex” guy was going to get sat, I let him have my spot; perhaps that will reduce the bellyaching.  Perhaps.

So, to be frank, I’m not sure about the long term.  I know I either have to just get over it and stay, don’t get over it and stay but raid w/ others (which is likely not to be looked kindly upon), or don’t get over it and leave.  I’m very undecided on the matter.  I’ve been careful in my recent dealings; I’ve not taken any gear from anyone who could use it (of course that’s since we were doing ToT, so it’s sort of moot by now), I’ve returned any guild mats I’ve used (a few gems to a gemcutter), and I didn’t take a spot that a more “devoted” member could use.  If I decide to leave, there should be no bad blood.  Regardless, for now, I’m undecided.

But the larger issue is that this is precisely what I wanted to avoid this time around, and I didn’t.  Again, I’m mired in guild nonsense that’s ruining the fun of the game.  The most fun I’ve had was the spite raid I did without my guild, which is a pretty unhealthy situation.  

So what’s worth fighting for?  The guild?  Some semblance of unity?  Or even WoW itself?  I don’t know if any of them are, any more.

I do know this, though.  A lot of more casual guilds tout their friendly atmosphere as a big selling point for their mediocre raiding.  It struck me after doing the two flex raids with two different guilds (one my buddy had friends in and my buddy’s guild) that there’s friendly people everywhere.  The people in those raids were funny, understanding, and accepting.  Good people in guilds aren’t in short supply; competent players and unity are.  That’s perhaps what I need to be looking for, if I decide to move.


Stubborn (and taking a weekend to decide)

18 Comments leave one →
  1. October 4, 2013 6:12 am

    It’s dead Jim.

    Frankly, what a guild can offer you is (a) the social aspect and the friendly atmosphere, (b) group events and raid progression or ideally (c) both.

    If you raid with people outside the guild and you’d rather not interact with your guildmates, then you’re better off in a new guild. As you said yourself, the best fun you’ve had was the ‘spite’ raid, and that was because you were finally away from a bad situation, at least for a couple of hours.

    Run, don’t walk, from that guild, ASAP.

  2. October 4, 2013 7:33 am

    What’s worth fighting for is your enjoyment of the game, in my humble opinion. I would never stick around with people who seem like a clear recipe for distress and frustration. You don’t have to fix them…they are their own problem. You can look for a better guild.

    • October 4, 2013 10:47 am

      “What’s worth fighting for is your enjoyment of the game” – These are the magic words.

      If you have to question why you’re sticking around in a guild that you are obviously unhappy with, it’s time to go. You are paying a monthly sub fee to enjoy the game and have fun. I know you’re in a neverending persuit of the perfect guild, but if you can at least have fun and run flex raids with the other group, I see no good reason why you shouldn’t.

  3. October 4, 2013 8:55 am

    I’d argue that you answered your own question in the post. You had the most fun with a group that did the job without all the drama and personality-driven conflicts you are finding in your own guild. As long as the official environment is “we prefer fun to progress” you are going to have these conflicts. Everyone has a different idea of fun and those ideas often conflict and cause drama, especially since the focus of the guild is fun.

    A progression-focused group is more likely to not interact overly much, have set rules on conduct, and focus on getting the job done. If that’s what you want to do you need to find a group with hours you can manage and go there.

    Is WoW an interface for Mumble or a progression game for you?

  4. October 4, 2013 9:06 am

    I’d say you answered your own questions. You raided with another group, saw progression *and* had fun simultaneously. Time to pack your bags.

  5. Beshara permalink
    October 4, 2013 9:54 am

    My suggestion is to think about what drew you to that guild in the first place. Was it the raid schedule that is no longer in effect? Was it more than that? Does it look like you are in the minority, or does the elitist group have less people but more influence? Then finally, does it look like things will continue down this road? Not sure what will happen when your GM gets back and sees what has transpired.

    It sounds like worse case scenario you have your buddy you can flex raid with, at least for now. I know personally Flex raids aren’t really being advertised right now, or if they are it’s not easy to find them.

  6. Zarisia permalink
    October 4, 2013 11:29 am

    Stubborn, in your eyes probably fall into the “elitist” group in the guild. At this point, I have applied the same question to myself. When I joined the guild, it was originally a casual guild focused on raiding as listed at Partway through the expansion though, the mission statement has changed to an inclusive guild which is listed on the current website. Not everyone was consulted nor agreed on the change. Some of us would like to complete content while it is current. And that is changing guild culture you stepped into upon joining the guild.

    • October 4, 2013 11:48 am

      I suspect that’s precisely what’s happened, which is unfortunate because it’s created a rift between people that otherwise bear each other no ill will. After the big meeting during that 25 man (I don’t remember if you were there or not), the situation you describe became pretty plain; some were far more casual and others were far more progression minded.

      What bothers me is not the differing playstyles, both of which are completely valid (as I’ve written about before), but instead that it seems that now that the cat’s away, specific members are running the show. The officers I’ve spoken to the most about it, both of whom I like a lot, just don’t seem to be handling it the way I’d like. That’s not anyone’s fault but my own; I’m unhappy with the way the guild is going; that doesn’t inherently make it wrong.

      I appreciate you coming by to help clarify your side of the issue, and please understand that with a few exceptions, I like the people in the guild; I just don’t necessarily like how they’re treating each other.

  7. October 4, 2013 12:28 pm

    It just sounds like you’re at odds with those who are leading the direction of the guild (which, strictly based on your posts, doesn’t sound like the officers in any real way). The officers seem to be willing to allow their core 6 (or 1) players to determine what happens and aren’t concerned about how things like changed plans, missed runs and exclusionary activities will be taken by the non-core players. If you were a player who was just happy to have a guild and an occasional spot then that would be fine but you aren’t that type of player.

    Hell, I’d have napalmed that guild by now in your place considering the ridiculous bait-and-switch, I’ll put up with a lot because I don’t really like change but there are exactly 6 players who seem to be benefitting from the current structure and you aren’t one of them, everone else either needs to keep up or get the hell out of the way. Screw them. It’s not like you haven’t been making your position clear, it’s obvious they just don’t give a damn.

    I’m galled by the scheduled LFR that turned into Flex. I’m even more galled by “Monday we had to do normal since flex was used up.” Maybe you missed something in the story but I only see wing 1 being already done and even if they had been done, Flex isn’t like normal, you can re-run wings as long as the group lead hasn’t done it when you queue. If your guild gave a damn about all their players they’d have the special 6 do a run they’re already locked for loot on to help out those who get to sit most of the time. And if it had been LFR run instead of Flex during LFR night then I’m assuming Flex would have been available on Mon as scheduled. My head hurts.

    I mean, hell, for a guild that you think prides itself on being inclusionary, it’s basically the epitome of the exact opposite. Actions speak louder than words and here, they’re SCREAMING. Flex is supposed to avoid these types of problems and your guild has managed to turn even flex into something used for evil, “locking” (they aren’t actually locked) folks during unscheduled times and replacing Flex timeslots with more exclusionary activities. Flex is progression content for those not (ever or regularly) running normal. Treating it as anything less than that is really damned elitist.

    Why not just see if you can get a regular slot in your buddy’s flex run? Sounds like it went well and you’d enjoy running with them. There are worse things than raiding with a non-guild group (ie. not your guild), I’ve been doing that for years with a lot of success/enjoyment. Find another guild that fits your social needs and have the best of both worlds. Just join the raid FIRST, have that be established precedent before you switch guilds, no sense inviting drama. 🙂

  8. October 4, 2013 4:36 pm

    I am personally loving the blatant strawman type arguments that you are using to malign and demonize me and my friends.

    The really funny thing is you were on my shortlist of people to approach about off the book raiding because I did see you getting sit a lot, and were improving at such a dramatic rate. But I will give it to you, when you burn a bridge you do it with style and panache.

    If you had been there for even 1 of the real conversations we had, while in open mumble channels, generally with an officer involved you might have a better idea of what the actual core problems that a bunch of us focused raiders are having.

    And just so you all know, my basic wish . . . is the ability to have a say in how I can raid. That’s pretty much it . . . yup I’m an elitist because sometimes I don’t want to raid with people who I can’t stand, or chill and get drunk with my friends while killing bosses. I’m an elitist because I demand accountability and consistency. I’m sick of wiping on easy bosses with easy mechanics because some people are bad. I mean I’m placing 9 hours of my life a week doing a group activity, this is a pretty big timesink for me and I’ve assigned enough personal value that I do want everyone around me to assign it the same general value.

    And my beef has never been with you (or at least not until you decided that it was all about you) it has always been with the officers. And I at least have trying to change the raiding culture, not to the culture that I would thrive in but somewhere in the middle between where i want to be and where we are. The real problem here is, that I appear to be the only one willing to compromise. And hell, if I decide to go off and do something myself with some friends (like you did) I get told I need to open it up for the general guild, and then get punished for attempting to do my own thing.

    Lets also bring up how the officer core blatantly lied to me and the rest of us about this entire mess. Again I will site my willingness to compromise, yet no one else is (and no I WILL NOT COMPROMISE ON TORTOS).

    • October 4, 2013 5:17 pm

      I’m sorry if you think putting this in the sunlight is some kind of strawman argument. If you see something inaccurate about what I’ve said, I’d love to hear specifics. If you’re just unhappy because it only portrays my side of the story, well, that’s the only side I have. I’ve done as I’m supposed to and speak with officers, and this is the amalgamation of what I’ve been told. I was actually very careful in typing this to avoid particularly biased words, some of which I’d used in the past but wanted to eliminate here.

      My beef has never been with you, either, and in fact I still have a lot of respect for you as a player and a person. Zarisia’s link in his comment before was extremely revealing; it clearly showed how the archived guild message and the current message are completely opposite, so it’s clear that I was recruited under what I couldn’t have known was a massive change from the guild’s original intent, and I think it clarifies why my perspective is so totally different from yours and the others.

      To respond to one of your main accusations, I don’t think this is about me at all. In fact, the earliest “shots fired” I did my best to stay out of, and it was others who were quite upset. I was brought in by them, and even then I tried to find neutral ground (which you may remember from the big guild meeting where I was trying to take both G’s and Q’s opinions and find overlap). Only recently has it felt more about me, but still I made it about the people being sat, not just me, though I am often in that position.

      What C told me during recruitment is different from what it seems both the officer’s and the guild’s intentions were. I don’t hold that against anyone. However, it’s still a different setting than I was lead to believe I’d be joining, so I have a right to be frustrated by recent developments.

      In the end, I hope one thing you takeaway from this is that when I decided not to go last night I made sure my spot went to you, specifically. That’s not something you do to someone you don’t like or respect. It just may be that we were put at odds from the start through changes above our pay grade. Beyond overlooking the more angry prose from your comment, which I can fully and completely understand, I ask you reflect on what’s actually be written here and identify what it is specifically that’s upset you. If you’d like to discuss those in more detail, I welcome it. This is my place, and I feel comfortable to do so here. In guild, I defer to higher authority, which can lead to misunderstandings.

      The ball’s in your court if you’d like to talk more.

      Thanks for the comment!

    • October 7, 2013 2:36 am

      “That’s pretty much it . . . yup I’m an elitist because sometimes I don’t want to raid with people who I can’t stand, or chill and get drunk with my friends while killing bosses.”

      If you can’t stand the people on the guild, why are you in it? Just get your friends to make your own and you can avoid all those ‘losers’ you can’t stand.

      Oh wait, you probably don’t have the roles/roster/motivation to raid on your own… my bad…

  9. October 4, 2013 5:13 pm

    Thank you so very much for airing out our dirty laundry for everyone to see, without even asking those of us involved if it was ok (Which btw none of us (who apparently elitists) have done this.) Majority of us have been with the guild 3+ years. There have been things going on you have no idea about. Obviously I am not pleased about you posting this stuff casting our guild in a negative light (it is easy enough to find the guild you were in if anyone wanted). If you were going to post I would think you could at least get ALL the facts correct. Instead you post stuff that is wrong or not the whole truth.

    Our guild is like a big family. There is dysfunction at times, but people for the most part really like each other. We have different opinions on how things should be, but again we are a family and at the end of the day we tend to try and work things out. NONE of this has been a big secret. We have all be quite open about stuff. We did not yell it from the roof tops because we did not want to seem like we were rubbing anything in. How dare you join us and so soon start writing negative things about us for the WoW blogosphere to see. I feel like you joined us just to grasp at material for your blog. Well congrats. It is a great story you told, full of drama. I am sure it kept many folks entertained who knew nothing about our guild family.

    Maybe you should look at yourself to why you have been in so many guilds and none worked out for you. Maybe there is something wrong with you. Either way it would be really great if you could please stop airing out any of MY guild family’s issues. It is a shame; I thought you were going to be someone fun to play with. 😦

    • October 4, 2013 5:28 pm

      Grave, I’m sorry if you feel that way. I’ve not identified anyone by name, nor have identified the guild, so only by revealing yourselves have you put names with events at hand.

      That said, I’m not going to apologize for writing about my WoW experiences on my WoW blog. This is my place; you’re a welcome guest here, but it’s my place. I’ll write what I see fit. If you feel that any of the things I cataloged are inaccurate, I encourage you to point them out, and we can talk about where my and your differing perceptions came from. If you’re just upset because the events cast a negative light on the guild, then perhaps what you’re really upset about are those actions, not my bringing them to light. If those actions don’t look so great through my perception, then I’ve done an excellent job of describing how I feel.

      As for not speaking to ya’ll, I’ve been told over and over by the officers to speak to them if I have a problem, so I’ve done so. You’re asking me to break the rules of the guild and perhaps trigger an ugly confrontation, which neither side would look good in. That the officers are only telling me what they feel I need to know is something you can speak to them about; while I don’t necessarily agree with their decisions, I do trust their judgment, so I’ve continued turning to them. Perhaps if some of the guild actions were more transparent and less secretive (“not a big secret” or otherwise), all of this could have been avoided. I suppose we’ll never know, now.

      I have looked at myself, and I’ve often come to the same conclusion, actually. I’ve talked before about setting my standards too high, being hard to deal with, and having very conflicting values. I agree that that’s precisely why I find it so hard to find somewhere to fit in. Let me point out, though, that your attacks on my character don’t do much to prove your point, that we’re family and everyone fits in. It’s you specifically, in fact, who’s driven away one of my best friends in the guild, all the while, I might point out, I was defending you about being passionate about your raiding. It seems perhaps I was wrong in that.

      I wonder, too, about this very comment. It seems you’re trying to shame me or use peer pressure to accomplish the goal of not making me feel welcome. This sort of tactic has never worked on me. Perhaps it’s another character defect, but I joke constantly about people calling “teamwork” among adults the same thing they called “peer pressure” among kids. I do what I feel is right all the time regardless of the consequences, and there have been many. I sleep well at night, though, knowing that I stuck to my personal codes.

      I hope you take away from this a few things. One, I hope you reflect on what’s actually made you angry here. Did I write something that was inaccurate from my point of view, or is it simply that I’ve shed light on the inner workings of the guild that you’re upset about? If it’s the former, I invite you to give me specifics; even after this vitriolic attack I’m more interested in getting the truth out than cutting all ties. If it’s the latter, then, I encourage you to ask yourself why you’re so embarrassed that this is being seen by the world.

      Thanks for your comment!

  10. Beshara permalink
    October 4, 2013 7:55 pm

    Stubborn has constantly remarked that your side is not necessarily wrong in what you have decided to do, just different than what he was lead to expect. Stubborn being upset about that fact does not make him a bad person, or wrong. The information he was given colored his perception of the events taking place. I recently found myself in a very similar position. The guild I had issues with was not a bad guild, and the raiders were not bad people. But it is still upsetting to be in a situation that is completely opposite of what you were lead to expect, and I left to find a place that did work for me. If you are upset that someone else viewed your actions as bad, then maybe you should take his perception to heart and realize how your actions can affect other people. That includes the people you may have excluded (intentionally or unintentionally) that are like “family” in your guild, that have been there longer than Stubborn has. If you were in his position, you might feel the same way.

  11. Tiggi permalink
    October 6, 2013 5:46 am

    You guys aren’t winning any points for your side here. Just making yourselves look worse.

  12. Cain permalink
    October 9, 2013 1:49 pm

    The classic problem of different goals by different subsets of one guild. Neither is right or wrong, they both are just different. They were led to believe there would be more progression and you were led to believe that it was more inclusive. I’ve usually been on the side wanting more progression, so I can definitely understand how the other side must feel. It sounds like in this case though with the GM gone that there’s no clear decision making about the direction of the guild. If it’s his guild, it’s up to him to decide what the guild direction is. If the people that have been there for 3+ years want more progression than the gm sets for the direction then they need to form their own guild that has that as the goal. With flex and 10 mans that shouldn’t be hard, but the hard part is in leaving a guild you’ve been a part of for so long because the direction changed underneath you. It’s obviously not a family anymore if half the guild wants one thing, and half want something else. There’s no need to take any of this personally though, it is just about finding an environment that fits you. It sounds like the current environment fits neither half.

    Hell, the thing I take out of all of this is I want to know who your buddy is so that I can run flex with him multiple times per week.

  13. October 9, 2013 5:19 pm

    I personally found it impossible to raid in a “family” guild, as a “guild raid”. Unfortunately that is the direction that every game seems to drive folks. Stalwart used to have a separation of church and state between guild and raid. We were the guild House Stalwart and we raided together as part of a non-guild based raiding coalition called Duranub Raiding Company. More or less the boundary between raiding and guild worked. There was the occasional drama but folks were able to draw a line in the sand and what happened in raid… more or less stayed in raid.

    Then Cataclysm happened… and all these things were driven by guild level achievements. As a result all of the small feeder guilds that were also part of Duranub, collapsed into House Stalwart. As a result we went from like 400 characters to nearly 900 characters almost over night. The strain alone was hard on the guild, but the raiding AS a guild part is ultimately what destroyed the experience for me. Folks started to adopt a sense of entitlement towards raiding… that they no longer worked as hard towards the goals… because as a guild we should provide them a spot on one of our then five different 10 man teams.

    Ultimately I have come to the realization that I never again want to raid AS a guild. To me a happy raid and a happy guild are diametrically opposed. You can either be an amazing and supporting guild, or you can be a successful raid… but the two are for the most part mutually exclusive. Raid drama sucks… Guild drama sucks… but there is nothing on the planet WORSE than Raid Guild Drama. That’s my two cents as a grizzled veteran of leading both guilds and raids over the years.

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